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Poster: xtifr Date: Mar 29, 2006 5:49am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Ok, the "get off your high horse" may have been a little excessive, but then I wasn't too pleased about your comments about the good folks of San Francisco. Saying my homies make you want to "fucking gag" isn't going to leave me feeling very sympathetic towards you. If you go around gratuitously insulting people, you shouldn't be surprised to get a less-than-polite response now and then.

Dude, what you were doing (taping a band without permission) is illegal, and many people find it morally offensive. Someone could have reported you to security, and you probably would have at least had your tape confiscated, and, at worst, could be facing criminal prosecution by the RIAA. Instead, they politely waited till the concert was over to register their displeasure. IMO, you should be thanking these folks rather than calling them names!

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Poster: lastcall Date: Mar 29, 2006 6:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

So it's my assumption that you don't have any unauthorized concerts in your collection. If thats the case, then throw your stones. If not, perhaps you might climb down and start walking that horse.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Sep 20, 2006 11:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

i found Syrah's description to be comical. don't get me wrong, San Fransico is one of the most beautiful and friendliest cities that we could hope to hang in...the sad truth is that the people in the description in question are everywhere, their rude behavior deserves to be ridiculed.

This post was modified by midnight sun on 2006-09-21 06:11:03

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 29, 2006 7:54am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Not weighing in on the SF scene, but the following always makes me consider one very important, at least to me, artist's viewpoint on bootlegging shows:

Bootlegging, Royalties and the Moment
by Robert Fripp
There are two sides to bootlegging: professional and amateur. I recognize that at its real level music belongs to everyone. In fact, the ownership of music is a fairly recent phenomenon. It began in the 19th century, and was firmed up in the 20th by the Copyright Act of 1911, the formation of the PRS in 1914, the Composer's Guild (straight) in 1944, the Songwriters' Guild (popular) in 1947 and the Copyright Act of 1956. All these reinforced the notion of music as personal property; this is our market background.

Given that background, if money is to be made by the sale of my work then I wish to receive my share of it. All of the sex scenes in "Emanuelle" feature music lifted from "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part II." Following a lengthy legal action, my rights as composer have been acknowledged and a settlement made out of court. The implication that receiving royalties for one's work is inherently bad I find very queer and somehow peculiarly English. I espouse, through the Drive to 1981, "Action in the market place but not governed by the value of the market place." This presents all the dilemmas regarding money that any sane soul might need. Having lived in the States, I've seen some of the contradictions of a commercial culture, the other side of the famed "American Dream." And I'm familiar with Proudhon's "property is theft," communalistic philosophy and praxis, and some of the arguments of the Leveller, Ranter and Digger movements of the 17th century -- all reactions against our widespread belief in the sanctity of private property.

Facing all the hazardous contradictions borne by that sanctity, the real issue is surely: what might one do with one's royalties? The principle I follow is that proprietary advantage involves proprietary responsibility; that is, if one makes more money that one needs, there is an opportunity to use it socially. Different religions traditionally recommend giving 10 to 15% of one's income to charities; the church tithe was compulsary; our tax system is supposed to enforce the proprietary responsibility, by involuntarily redistributing income more equally than it is divvied up, willy-nilly, by market forces. I recognize that different kinds of people want -- and therefore feel they "need" -- different standards of living, and that mine is higher than some and lower than others. The wide difference between class levels seems queer, the exploitation and social pretension ot involves is offensive.

What I've chosen to do is to support a farming project in Cornwall, an adult education experiement in the States and a naturopathic hospital in England. The hospital is bankrupt, the farm and school are in serious trouble. The League of Gentlemen has a deficit of $30,000; my house has no hot water and the rain leaks through the roof; and, keep in mind, I wish to remain financially independent of the industry so that my musical choices remain personal and musical. And then there are those concert-goers and record-buyers and ideologues and "fans" who criticize artists who seek full royalty payment for their work and who try to halt exploitation of same by profiteering bootleggers. Forgive me but I find their posture exasperatingly naive.

Conversely, I have great sympathy for amateur bootleggers. With them, enthusiasm for the music is the motive. After all, are not the best Charlie Parker tracks live bootlegs? I also know quite a few performers who don't mind, such as the Instant Automatons in England who have gone so far as to provide a facility wherein audience members may hookup their cassette recorders to the hall's mix-board. Admirable, but not for me. My views are generally known to my audience; to bring a recorder is a deliberate violation of the ground rules, at best a violation of courtesy: it's rather like taking notes of a personal conversation to circulate of publish later. This from someone who's been a steady fixture on bootleg lists for over seven years.

Now we come to the humanistic and philosophical reasons why I oppose the furtive taping of live music. I am seeking the quality of attention, of being in the moment without expectation and without history, the moment between the human being and the human animal behavioral psychology so terrifyingly describes. As Blake put it, "He who bends himself a joy/Does the winged life destroy." Experiencing a piece of music repeatedly in an active state has its own qualities and merits. On tape, music is music: good, bad, lively, lethargic, spirited or whatever. In live performance, the music is still music there is another element: the music mediates a relationship between the player and the listener. This relationship is fragile and easily spoilt. To try to pin it down desrupts it, much like writing down one's thoughts during a meditation significantly disrupts the very process of meditation. For some players, this presents no difficulties, as with cameras, but it does for me. After all the years and miles I've covered with music, I've fully realized the significance of of the relationship between player and listener; what in music could be more primary, more valuable? To experience a piece of music once and only once is to experience that relationship in its most crystalline form. It cannot be repeated: how many times can one lose one's virginity?


"This will prove a brave kingdom to me,
Where I shall have my music for nothing."
- Shakespeare, _The Tempest_

This article originally appeared in Musician magazine, circa 1979.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Mar 29, 2006 3:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

CLEAR CHANNEL owns the entire BGP empire. This fascist corporation wants to control the Instant CD market; instead of the artists who plugged a DAT machine into their soundboard.

Take your illegal FILLMORE bootleg to a site that encourages such piracy. Bring Clear Channel and the RIAA's lawyers down on them. A lot of people have bootlegs of unfriendly artists. We don't own the Archives and we don't trade them here.

People have traded those Dick's Picks leftovers from the beginning! A thief has posted the entire Fillmore East 2/13/70 show on the Etree Community tracker. He demands the right to distribute pirated commercial (Picks Volume 4 and Bear's Choice) GRATEFUL DEAD albums. Then he cussed out a dozen people who complained about his crimes.

Most of us had enough of Bob Weir's crap months ago. We don't need another battle with the GRATEFUL DEAD office or the free bad publicity that goes with it, We don't need any more a$$holes, who come here hell bent on ruining things for everybody else. Get lost you thief...




Archive a lot of free publicity in it's public

This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2006-03-29 23:02:24

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Poster: Syrahsyrah Date: Mar 29, 2006 1:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

First, I apologize if I offended you about the crowd.

Second, I truly love San Francisco and feel it is the embodiment of what a world class city should be. It is one of the most spectacular cities in the world. Culture, art, music all blend to create a great vibe of openness and community spirit. I guess my comment was in relation to the other crowds I seen at Beth's shows. This will start to go into the realm of superficial.... but has always been a big bohemian contingency and hip pop culture mix(please take full liberty with my generalizations) As many observed that night, people showed up heard a song or two then left for a night out on the town. Thus, I foolishly made the well-heeled and well-groomed comment. Although I feel it is true and I would expect nothing less from SF. The people of SF are always one step ahead with a foot in the past and a mind stretching out to the outer limits. Enough said on that but please except my apology.

I love this from bluedevil: “Conversely, I have great sympathy for amateur bootleggers. With them, enthusiasm for the music is the motive. After all, are not the best Charlie Parker tracks live bootlegs?” I just love Beth’s music and I taped the show to relive the moment at a later date. It was never my intention to sell, profit or “rip-off” Beth in any way. Hell, I’ve seen her more then anyone I know and own all or her original albums.

I sought the Archive as a forum for discussion and I greatly appreciate all the input. I’ve written Beth’s management about her taping policy but I have not heard back from them as of yet. I’ve buried the tapes until the fire has settled in my own mind but one glorious day I will put them on, turn up the stereo and relish the music and this educational journey. Thank you all for the sage wisdom that follows from the Archive. Again, be well everyone. Syrahsyrah

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Poster: xtifr Date: Mar 29, 2006 6:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Apology accepted and one offered in return. Of course, it wasn't the "well-heeled, well-groomed" part that bothered me, it was the "fucking gag" line, which seemed to me a bit over the top. Still, that doesn't really excuse my own rudeness.

In any case, the point I most wanted to get across was that the guy who complained about your mic may well have been justified. But you seem to have grasped that point, so I won't belabor it.

> I love this from bluedevil: “Conversely, I have great sympathy for amateur bootleggers. With them, enthusiasm for the music is the motive.[...]"

Actually, bluedevil was quoting King Crimson founder Robert Fripp (one of my all-time favorites). And note that while Fripp says he sympathizes with them, he still doesn't want them at his shows. Later in the same paragraph, Fripp says, "My views are generally known to my audience; to bring a recorder is a deliberate violation of the ground rules, at best a violation of courtesy." I'm not sure if taping non-taper-friendly bands is bad karma (and I think reasonable people can disagree on the point), but I think it is, at least, discourteous. I think you'll have to make up your own mind about the karmic burden (if any) you may incur.

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Poster: davidbarfield Date: Mar 30, 2006 1:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

i think the karma biz is getting a little out of control. karma, in a secular scentific world (hopefully we still live in one), is hooey. figure: you tape the most taper-unfriendly group there is -- take it home and listen to it. put it in the drawer and leave it there because the band/perfomance blows. or listen to it repaeadly becasue it's great.... what's going to happen to you? nothing.
spread it around, you get busted. not becasue of karma, but because of law, culture, and societal norms -- or taper culture to be precise. buddha schmuddha!

as to fripp: psuedo-intellecutal horsepoo if i ever heard it. if one wants to get all high and mighty (philosophically and aesthetically) about the experience of art, one can make a far more compelling argument that no popular music is art because it is subservient to a commodified production process. art, in its purest form, is a response to, and a rejection of, the reality of oppression and inequity. adorno argued that the last american art was the old negro slave (and post slavery/jim crow) ballads/spirituals (another man done gone...) as it came directly from a subjective place devoid of any commercial concerns = true human artistic expression in "crystalline" form. fwiw, i don't agree with either fripp or adorno.

to say that one is destroying an artistic moment becasue of the magnetic or binary capture of the said perfomance, seems to me to be nothing more than mysticism for the sake of justifying a desire to quell competition. that's all fine, i'm not sure i trust all tapers...i think that an artist should just say it rather than formulate riaa informed "philosophy".

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 30, 2006 5:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Gas on the fire - or, in the alternative, what the ?

Philosophy is the question: from which side shall we look at life, God, the idea, or other phenomena. Everything one looks at is false. I do not consider the relative result more important than the choice between cake and cherries after dinner. The system of quickly looking at the other side of a thing in order to impose your opinion indirectly is called dialectics, in other words, haggling over the spirit of fried potatoes while dancing method around it.
If I cry out:
Ideal, ideal, ideal,
Knowledge, knowledge, knowledge,
Boomboom, boomboom, boomboom,
I have given a pretty faithful version of progress, law, morality and all other fine qualities that various highly intelligent men have discussed in so many books, only to conclude that after all everyone dances to his own personal boomboom, and that the writer is entitled to his boomboom: the satisfaction of pathological curiosity; a private bell for inexplicable needs; a bath; pecuniary difficulties; a stomach with repurcussions in life; the authority of the mystic wand formulated as the bouquet of a phantom orchestra make up of silent fiddle bows with philtres made of chicken manure. With the blue eye-glasses of an angel they have excavated the inner life for a dime's worth of unanimous gratitude. If all of them are right and if all pills are Pink Pills, let us try for once not to be right.

An excerpt from "Dada Manifesto 1918", Tristan Tzara

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Poster: Syrahsyrah Date: Mar 29, 2006 1:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Oh well....someone beat me to the punch. This show has been posted by another taper on another site. God help them!

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Poster: Syrahsyrah Date: Mar 29, 2006 2:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

cousinkix1953 Please Chill....Some are always the first to cast stones:

Here are a bunch of your reviews for everyone to see:

Diluting the trading pool! Remember mp3 are a no-no!
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: December 1st, 1966
Venue: The Matrix
Location: San Francisco, CA
Reviewer: cousinkix1953
Subject: Corrupt SHN File
This would be OK if the Cream Puff War wasn't corrupted. Tried downloadin three times. Same results. Wound up using the MP-3 instead. The other copy is not an exact duplicate of this seed...



Thief! Stealing from Dick's picks!
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: December 10th, 1979
Venue: Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall
Location: Kansas City, KS
Reviewer: cousinkix1953
Subject: further information...
The SBD of Scarlet-Fire is the hidden tracks on the end of Dick's Picks Volume #13, Disc 2

Diluting the trading pool! Remember mp3 are a no-no!
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: September 26th, 1973
Venue: Community War Memorial Auditorium
Location: Buffalo, NY
Reviewer: cousinkix1953
Subject: Buffalo, NY 9-26-73
The missing Playing in the band can be found at www.gdlive.com in the MP-3 section. It's worth downloading and adding to these files.

Theif! GD Hour is copyrighted!
Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: February 25th, 1995
Venue: Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum
Location: Oakland, CA
September 10, 2005
Reviewer: cousinkix1953
Subject: Wait for the Upgrade
David Gans just played this date on the GRATEFUL DEAD Hour. A decent SBD should be here soon as is often the case with his material...

Theif! King Biscuit Hour is copyrighted!
July 30, 2005
Reviewer: cousinkix1953
Subject: KBFH
This King Biscuit show was broadcast in 1978!
Didn't they air this as estimated-nfa-drums-nfa-round-terrapin?

My old FM cassette included the Terrapin Station from Winterland 12-29-77 according to the announcer's comments at the end of the hour...

Just thought I would let everyone know what a shame you are! Peace, Syrahsyrah

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Mar 29, 2006 3:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: December 1st, 1966
Venue: The Matrix
Location: San Francisco, CA

Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: September 26th, 1973
Venue: Community War Memorial Auditorium
Location: Buffalo, NY

There is no law against using MP-3s.

THESE WERE NOT RELEASED COMMERCIALLY; so they do not care if we obtained these SBDs prior to the policy change on 11-25-05.

Band/Artist: Grateful Dead
Date: December 10th, 1979
Venue: Soldiers' and Sailors' Memorial Hall
Location: Kansas City, KS

I OWN PICKS 13 you frigging moron.

The GD Hour is copyrighted! Duh!

And then David Gans gave his CD masters to Charlie Miller. They ended up here on the archive until Bob Weir changed the band policy regarding soundboard tapes. Look around read the file notes and see for yourself. Anybody, who listens to David's local KPFA broadcasts knows this and he never hid it from anybody.

Theif! King Biscuit Hour is copyrighted! Duh again, idiot.
Many of thoseold 70's shows are on CDs now.

It is not illegal to record a cassette tape from a terrestial FM radio station broadcast.

You are not employed by Clear Channel; but you recorded an artist without her permission or that of the FILLMORE owners. SO YOU ARE IN FACT A THIEF AND STUPID TO BOOT...


This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2006-03-29 23:35:02

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Poster: Fishead Date: Mar 29, 2006 11:31pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Taping Karma Issue -- Beth Orton at the Fillmore 3.25.06

dammmm...you get up on the wrong side of the bed or what!!

smoke a fatty and start over....:)


the dude made one mistake and that was not checking with the artist 1st..but that doesnt make him the 2nd coming of bin-laden!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2006 1:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: A Posting Karma Issue

Please don't start over gentlemen- best to just stop.

Chuckle, seems like the Grateful Dead is the Hitler substitute in this forum's version of Godwin's Law. ;)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-03-30 09:09:12

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